saugus.soc.edu.misc

Re: Open Formats (was: Teaching American History Grant)

Answersaugus.soc.edu.miscNewsgroups
Subject: Re: Open Formats (was: Teaching American History Grant)
From: [Picon]eric@saugus.net (Eric W. Brown)
Newsgroups: saugus.soc.edu.misc
Organization: Saugus.net
Date: Nov 16 2005 17:36:20
Joe Connolly wrote:

While I do understand and appreciate all that our Town is doing with regard to hedging their bet ... the school system will still be forced somewhat to deal with Microsoft

It depends on what you mean.  In this particular case we're talking about file formats on a web site, and using open formats in preference to closed ones.  The OpenDocument format is vendor-neutral, and Microsoft is fully able (and encouraged) to make their software work with it.  In fact, it shouldn't be overlooked that Microsoft is one of the member companies of OASIS, the organization that developed OpenDocument, and they had input into the OpenDocument format and had ample opportunity to raise objections if they saw any technical difficulties with implementing support for OpenDocument in their own products.  If Microsoft doesn't provide direct support for open formats, there are still a half-dozen or so other organizations that currently do (some of whom provide products for free) and I don't doubt that still others will spring up (and I fully expect a plug-in to provide MS-Office with OpenDocument support to be written by a third party if Microsoft doesn't step up to the plate in time).

On the web side of things using open formats like PDF and OpenDocument mean that more people can access the information without having to purchase any extra software (if it's even an option for them -- MS-Office isn't available for every platform).

It goes back to the fact, that the system is preparing many for future employment opprotunities, not just academic pursuits and since the world is a MS world (majority of businesses etc.) school systems will continue to maintain MS offerings

On the teaching side things are much different.  Of course, talking about file formats and not office applications, it's a moot point as the underlying format is mostly hidden from the typical user.

Still, looking into the application side of things and the notion of teaching as a preparation for employment opportunities, I'd still strongly question the exclusive use of any one particular office program in a public school system.  There are a few reasons for this:

1.  Schools already tend to over-emphasize computer use in their training programs.  Using computers isn't hard; kids pick up such skills anyway without being taught.  (Note that I'm not talking about programming here -- lots of people do have trouble picking up programming on their own.)  The time spent on learning a specific office application would probably be better spent on learning more fundamental skills (like mathematics, science, history, language, etc.)

2.  Learning how a specific version of a specific application works as part of a public school program is next to useless if you're expecting it to help prepare one for the workforce.  After four years of being in public school (and possibly another four in college) whatever version of whatever application one started with will be hopelessly out of date. Likewise, different shops use different software.  I think you're oversimplifying matters a bit by stating that the world is a MS world (assuming you're meaning office software) as MS has many different versions of its office suite in wide use right now, and some of them have dramatically different interfaces.  The Saugus Senior Center currently has a computer training course built around MS-Works (I forget the version, but it's not the current one) and while some computer systems do come with some version of MS-Works pre-installed, others come with some version of MS-Office pre-installed, and still others come with neither.  I can tell you that students who learn by rote on one system have a great deal of trouble when dropped onto another system.  What ought to be taught are office suite *concepts*, and students should be exposed to multiple applications in order to better future-proof them. When one is comfortable with the basic concepts of an office application, one can easily move between different versions of MS-Office, MS-Works, iWork, OpenOffice, StarOffice, AppleWorks, Geoworks, KOffice, IBM Workplace, or whatever one encounters.

3.  Most of the computer jobs that someone is actually going to attend college for aren't going to rely on home-grade software for too much anyway.  You'll see office software (of course) for typical office and secretarial work, but publication work is invariably going to entail some sort of higher-end software like FrameMaker or InDesign (or even rarely LaTeX).  These products (with the exception of the relatively unfriendly LaTeX) are expensive though and usually public schools can't afford them.  AFAIK Saugus is still using Quark and PageMaker.  Again, this isn't a real problem so long as concepts are taught over the specifics of particular applications.  Software engineering is a different animal altogether and is pretty well set away from office apps.  It's worth noting that MS-Word in particular isn't too well geared to writing something like a book; it doesn't encourage good word-processing habits (such as named styling) and becomes a nightmare for anyone trying to combine several such contributions into a uniform whole -- again, if only people were taught the concepts they'd be able to create a proper document with any word-processing tool.

Please note here that I'm not saying that schools should avoid teaching with MS-Office.  Far from it.  What I'm saying here is that they should expose students to multiple systems (including MS-Office) so that students can better get a grasp of the underlying concepts and be able to better adapt to the needs of a changing world.

In terms of what systems schools should be using, I vote for security and cost considerations being far more important than the availability of any particular application.  Students can learn the necessary computer concepts on pretty much any system; the $100 systems that MIT is working on fit the bill nicely.  The Saugus Public Schools' current Mac systems are fine (provided they're running at least Mac OS X, which sadly many aren't).  The schools' current WinTel systems are fine, although I'd personally probably opt to put some flavor of UNIX on them to both save on licensing and reduce maintenance costs.  If the system a student has at school is different from the system that student has at home, the student will simply learn both without too much difficulty. On the flip side, a student who's only been exposed to one way of doing things is going to find it hard to adjust as an adult when his or her career is potentially on the line.

I hear that painful truth all the time, I deal with numerous systems throughout the state and many state and local agencies, with regard to such solutions

I'm more from the private sector, and specifically from a technical background.  No two places I've worked have used the same set of software applications (although probably coincidentally the vast majority have utilized some version of FrameMaker in their arsenal -- in my particular case learning FrameMaker in school would have made more sense than learning MS-Office -- but learning either would have made less sense than learning the basic concepts that underly both).

I do think your site is fantastic however - PLEASE KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK!

Thanks, I'm glad you like it.  We do intend to keep on going and expanding capabilities.  We've got a couple things in the pipeline now; it may take them awhile to mature, though.  Since we're an independent organization from the Town that doesn't get supported by Saugus tax dollars in any way, we have to provide for ourselves.  That means that serving commercial accounts must always outweigh adding new free features, and consequently the free features sometimes take a little longer to see release than we'd like.  These forums in fact were something we'd wanted to get going a couple of years ago, and you see how long it took us to make them see the light of day...

Date Subject  Author
04.08. * Teaching American History GrantEric W. Brown
02.09. `* Re: Teaching American History GrantEric W. Brown
07.11.  `* Re: Teaching American History GrantJoe Connolly
07.11.   `* Re: Teaching American History GrantEric W. Brown
15.11.    `* Re: Teaching American History GrantJoe Connolly
16.11.     `- Re: Open Formats (was: Teaching American History Grant)Eric W. Brown
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